30 thoughts on “3 deaths looming

  1. I think it depends on your viewpoint and what you’re reading / watching…

    1. I’ve been following for a while
    2. Brand new to me really – good old BBC
    3. Everywhere…

    Erm, so actually you’re probably right there. But it’s the incredulity of what’s happening to that poor lady. Or more importantly jaws dropping even further at the arrogance of that ejit in power over there. It’s the same old ‘Right to die’ argument (and I don’t mean that as flippantly as it sounds) but for the most powerful man on earth (if not the brightest) to rush back to sign a bill…

    …just not worth getting started on it. I come to expect it from over there now. I turned off the news the other day when an American reporter blamed a tonne of people for missing ‘the signs’ when another kid went on a shooting rampage. Gave tips on what to watch for in kids…personally I just thought “Take away the bloody guns would be a start”. But then you get a flag waving Charlton Heston with a tear in his eye crying out about his cold dead hands…

    Reap what you sow.

  2. Well, I just thought I would add my two cents being in the good ole USA. The first two don’t concern me much but the Terri Shiavo made me want to write. Our government has clearly overstepped it’s boundaries on this issue. What it boils down to is two parents who can’t “let go” of their child. They are not the legal guardian of her, her husband is. Her wishes were clearly made known yet no one wants to think that a person would chose death over a life in such condition as she finds herself. I am ashamed to say that our government officials feel that their time is best put to use with this case. This is clearly a “state” issue and with every court upholding the constitution and President Dubya Dumbass and his brother Jeb going against everything we stand for is bullshit.

    God, is it 2008 yet?

  3. I’m not Catholic, and far be it for me to tell anyone how to run their cults, er, religions, but why can’t they simply allow their Popes to retire gracefully and live a simple life? He’s done an enormous amount of stuff that Popes do, so how come he can’t just go and hit a beach somewhere and enjoy some sun and surf until his Maker calls him home?

    I’ve not heard about Prince Rainier. That said, why is the death of a widely-known person any more significant than the 45 year-old man here in my home town who recently passed away? He was loved by many, so why won’t he be mentioned on the news? I don’t understand why some people worship celebrity so much.

    Terri Shiavo — my heart aches for that poor woman. I hope that the doctors keep her free from pain and that the cursed politicians allow her the dignity of a peaceful death. It amazes me how sometimes the human animal shows more compassion to a suffering dog or cat than they do a suffering relative.

  4. Jennifer – The pope ain’t dead!

    Craig said:

    “but why can’t they simply allow their Popes to retire gracefully and live a simple life? He’s done an enormous amount of stuff that Popes do, so how come he can’t just go and hit a beach somewhere and enjoy some sun and surf until his Maker calls him home?”

    There is an option for the pope to retire on the grounds that he is unable to carry out his duties any longer. However, the current pope is a stubborn old bastard and subscribes to the notion that if God wanted him to retire he would be dead already. This is a handy way out and some might say that God has tried a few times already :grin:

  5. actually Stacy, you are VERY mistaken.. Terri Schiavo’s wishes were NOT clearly made known, OR she would have had an advanced directive in place. You are merely sheeping back what you’ve told on all the news stations.

    1. 3 ppl heard her say in “passing comments” that she “wouldn’t want to live that way”. What 3 ppl you ask? The husband, his sister, and the sisters husband. Other ppl, her BEST friend, and her immediate family members heard OTHER things.

    2. Tack on the fact the she was raised in a catholic family, and a practicing catholic up until her “accident”, then educate yourself on what the catholic faith believes and you will see that HIS wishes for her death, aren’t even consistent with her faith.

    3. You mention her “condition”. Thats also debatable.. there were 5 doctors that looked at her in 2001, I believe it was, 3 of the 5 went one way, the other 2 went the other. Thats certainly NOT a clear cut decision by any means.

    4. The judges… Mr. Schiavo likes to claim that 19 judges have heard this case.. thats Not quite accurate.. FOUR judges have heard the case.. the rest of them refused to.

    5. Back to her “condition” — I have heard alot of ppl say recently “I wouldn’t want to live like that” Judge Greer even said it. Frankly, what YOU or him want is of NO consequence, and has no bearing on what she might want.

    want more?

    How bout this. Schiavo is having her cremated. Cremation violates the catholic faith. Schiavo has also said “no autopsy”. Schiavo is taking her ashes and they are being interned in HIS family’s plot (supposedly). You find me ANY other man that would take his estranged wife’s ashes and intern them them separately from her blood family’s.. please find me one. Ill check back to see how you are doing.

    Why did Schiavo testify in court that he wanted to take care of her for the rest of her life without ANY mention of her s0-called wishes???? Wanna know why? He wanted the money, and then 7 years later, he wanted to kill her.

    Need more.. heres a good article: http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43463

    you will undoubtedly sluff it off, since your a liberal, thats a shame. I am a liberal, I didn’t vote for Bush, but I am woman enough to overcome political bullshit, and call a spade a spade, and this friend, is murder.

  6. whoo – I’m with Stacy, as I shall explain in a post soon enough.

    If it was murder, then why has every court in your country failed to stop this ?
    Catholic faith ? And which part of that fragmented church would you point us at for this cremation thing then ?
    Do you have an Advanced Directive in place ? If so why ? surely this case has shown there are no certainties and definitives, so why bother ?

  7. Mark,

    I dont have the answer to your questions, and that they havent lends no merit to his case. The courts are often wrong, in ALL sorts of things.

    Regarding the catholic faith, where I point you is of no consequence. I would harken to say that her immediate family is better at answering that question, wouldnt they be?

    Do i have an advanced directive in place? Yes actually, I do. I also have a will. And i have a durable power of attorney document.

    Florida laws allow for “verbal” blah blah blahs regarding end of life wishes IN THE ABSENSE OF a living will or an advanced directive.

    And not to be rude, but Im not going to debate the merits of the case with anyone that isnt, shall we say, up to speed with the history of the case. My arguemnts are NOT emotional ones, so getting involved in one isnt an option for me. I may read your next post, but I doubt I will have anything to debate unless you want to adress something thats in the link I provided in my last comment.

    Like I said, for the record. Im a democrat. For the record, I detest Bush, for the record, I believe in God, but i dont go to church, for the record, I beleive in a woman’s right to choose.

    For the record, I also beleieve this is murder.

  8. whoo – I genuinely do not see this as murder. I really do not. What I find curious is that you believe in a woman’s right to choose (as I also do) yet some would say that a woman exercising that very right would become a murderer. And the Catholic church does not support a woman’s right to choose.

    We are all a mix of views, and sometimes they are contradictory – which is a good thing as it makes us individuals – but what we must not do is lose sight of the fact that we must respect the views of others even if we do not agree. That has to be the case.

  9. Mark, Im not catholic, so my beliefs being inconsistent with catholicism dont matter, and what does that have to do with her? this isnt about me after all — and like I said, Im taken care of, legally.

    as far as being inconsistent.. of course its inconsistent, I wouldnt have myself any other way. The only time I have to worry about myself is when I become too self-obsessed with one ideology (Bush hating, perhaps)that I am too closed to see where something else might be at work. Theres a word for ppl that are like that, it escapes me now.

    If you want to discuss aboortion, Im open. :) Understand though that there is a VERY clear difference between a right to choose and doing it yourself. I cannot say with ANY assuredness that I personally could be compelled to obtain one. Of course, short of rape, I will never have to worry about that .. I happen to be rather lucky in that regard.

  10. Feel free to edit this Mark

    @Whoo : Jayzuz didn’t know the Pope was well enough to post here? Oh I’m sorry, did I get that wrong? I got the impression you were throwing opinions about on behalf of all Catholics. Cremation violates Catholic faith? Bollocks. Never heard such shite for a long time. I assume you’re talking about turning off life support for your second point? Again you’re talking shite, it’s a brilliant example of how the Christian right (American religious loonies) are twisting it to Euthanasia which the Catholic faith doesn’t agree on because death should be natural. Tell me, what’s natural about machines keeping her alive?

    I completely agree with Stacey and God help me if some bastard tries to keep me alive in a state like that I’ll haunt them to the end of their days.

    It’s a terrible family argument which nobody else should have stuck their damn nose into, but that arse in the White House wants to bring the state and the church closer together and this is a brilliant opportunity.

    For fecks sake…the whole nation getting worked up over this with the President rushing to sign bills to stop it WHEN CHILDREN ARE SHOOTING EACH OTHER AT THE SAME TIME.

    Unbelievable.

  11. wow, Gary, kudos for you for managing to post an entire 2 paragraphs of complete emotional crap. Ive already replied to all of your points, so I wont bother again.

    Heres the other great misguided logic that is so aboundant these days:

    1. i hate Bush
    2. Bush wants to sabe Terri Schiavo
    3. Terri Schiavo needs to die

    Oh, and btw, I happen to live in Minnesota, is there soemthing you want to add about the recent school shooting here? Wanna go the gun control route? Im a liberal but Im game. Trouble is that the kid stole a gun that wouldnt have been affected by gun control. OH WAIT, you must have missed that watching CNN.

  12. oh and another thing, Gary, the schindlers have asked repeatedly to have “swallow tests” performed, the husband wont allow them.

    The fact that she is fed by a tube is a direct result of his unwillingness to allow any further tests be done.

    And frankly, who gives a flying crap about what YOU would want. You arent her, so go write your AD and stfu.

  13. “Im not catholic, so my beliefs being inconsistent with catholicism dont matter”

    You’re kidding right? You’re trying to say the opinion you offered on a religious faith was complete bollocks but that doesn’t matter because you don’t belong to that faith?

    You arrogant arse.

    I’m not emotional you ejit, I’m just tired of hearing the shite coming from your side of the Atlantic. I’m not having a dig at Bush, that’s too easy, and I’m not stupid enough to think it’s all down to him. He was elected. It’s THAT majority that annoys me. But well done for reinforcing my opinions. Do you Americans not realise you’re becoming more and more isolated?

    “Trouble is that the kid stole a gun that wouldnt have been affected by gun control”

    Don’t get righteous on me because you live in the same State, it doesn’t impress me. Here’s a novel concept of gun control that’s probably alien to you…get rid of them all.

    CNN? Nah we pretty much have an independent press over here that broadcasts more than one opinion.

    Sorry Mark, I’m not in the mood and have hijacked your space. Rereading this thread that ejit doesn’t really have a point…just making senseless noise.

  14. hey Gary,

    hers a novel concept for you — Im not on your f’ing enemy. Read again, I didnt vote for Bush, and Im for gun control. But I do draw the line at thinking that the US needs to enact some sort of gun control where cops dont have them him. Last time I checked, not all of your little bobbies are unarmed anymore. Right?

    what any of that has to do with Terri Schiavo I dont know. You apparantly just want to bash Americans from across the pond. Well done.

    Gotta love being called names by some fucking Brit after being told that I am supposed to respect someone else’s opinion, give me a break.

    You should feel proud, Gary, real proud.

  15. Gary – no apologies (or editing) needed.

    whoo – “complete emotional crap” you said above … the way you are are arguing is hardly subjective. And before you go further and dig that hole even deeper, go read http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/40738
    I have not read it all yet (I found it late last night and only just got up) but the first paragraph alone shows what this is actually all about.

  16. Mark, i disagree, and her is why. Temper this, once again, with the “I’m a liberal” stuff ..

    Your blog entry, and my initial response was primarily directed at someone, Stacy, who sees this as a “Bush thing”. In MY opinion, its not a Bush thing, its a Terri thing.

    Ive never stood up and said that politicians on both sides of the aisle weren’t willing to use this as a political football.. I’m sure they are, and I’m sure they have previously. THAT isn’t what the Schiavo case is about to Michael Schiavo or her parents though — and THATS the difference between what I am saying, and what other ppl appear to be saying here.

    “Bush haters” fail to see Terri Schiavo, they just see hate for Bush.

    As far as being subjective.. Ive offered a up a page that “explains” the factual history of the case” as well as can possibly be done, I’ve yet to get a reply that isn’t inflammatory or somehow accusatory of me..
    In fact, poor Gary cant even stay on the subject, he wants to talk about gun control for Christ’s sake, Gun control remarks coming from someone across the pond, who’s country is, in fact, moving toward having MORE guns, in the wake of finding that their bobbies were at a bit of a disadvantage with just nightsticks.. Right. or wrong?

    The nice thing about there being more than one country on the planet is that you can more or less, pick one that suits you, if you’re wealthy enough. That means that those of you that disagree with the US , its policy’s, and policy-makers can shuffle off to somewhere else, and/or bitch from a-far about how incredibly evil we Americans are (read Gary),

  17. whoo – “Ive offered a up a page that “explainsâ€? the factual history of the caseâ€? as well as can possibly be done”
    No – you offered a page that agrees with your view.

    Of the opinions expressed so far here, I actually disagree with yours, not those of either Stacy or Gary. The “liberal” tag means nothing at all to me, but the simple fact is that NO-ONE was privy to what was said in that household. Not me, not you, not the millions of people now debating it. As such while I accept your view and your right to have it, do not attack me or anyone else for having a view different to yours.

    The point about my actual post seems to have been lost ….

  18. Mark,

    listen closely…

    1. that page doesnt state that anyone KNEW for sure what her wishes were.
    2. Ive never stated I know what her wishes are.
    3. You havent been attacked. In fact, the only personal attacks here so far, were lobbed at me by Gary. You scooted right over that though, I can only presume because you agree with him.

    Kettle meet pot, Mark

    Whether the page in question agrees or disagrees with my viewpoint on the case doesnt matter. facts are facts, That I happen to come to same conclusion based on said facts .. since when is that “wrong”?

    Find me another page with the same facts, and a different conclusion, I an i will disagree. See how that works, Mark.

    and yes, your point is lost, it was lost with the first or second reply, and guess what, you might have expected that.

  19. Hahah, I really rattled someones cage :) Apart from coming here to bully Stacey I see no point in Whoos comments, nothing is accurate or backed up. And yeah, just like in the real situation the point has been completely lost.

    Bobbies? Jayzus can’t even get the feckin country right ;)

    I do feel proud Whoo, real proud.

    (Godwin?)

  20. whoo – I’m saying this slower, okay ?

    You just said “Whether the page in question agrees or disagrees with my viewpoint on the case doesnt matter. facts are facts,”
    NO.
    They are NOT THE FACTS. They are what someone has chosen to present as facts when they most absolutely are not. If there was a discussion between Mr & Mrs Schiavo many years ago about this, then they are THE ONLY ONES who know THE FACTS. Everyone else is prevaricating.
    Every court in your land as scrutinised this, and every single court has found all actions to be perfectly legal.

    Get over it.

  21. If you find an inaccuracy on the the page I originally linked to, I would love for you to point it out. I wont hold my breath waiting.

    you havent rattled my cage gary, and on the contrary, you havent said anything thats substantive regarding the case.. youve just spouted more of the “america is bad” crap. It’s a tired argument, unfortunately.

    have a great holiday!

  22. I’m not going for the ‘america is bad’ thing at all. There are still people like Stacy there and a lot of other good friends of mine. What I am saying is you’re an arrogant bully who can’t or won’t get their facts right. But the detail doesn’t bother you, it’s the noise you make that keeps you happy :)

  23. sorry, folks, Im with whoo on this one. And you should re-read what you just wrote Mark:

    “if ….”

    well what IF they didnt have the conversation? Moreover, what does any of that have to do with what the parents say, regarding what they know about their daughter, and any conversations they might have had with her.

    You should read up Mark, youre sadly misinformed, and there is plenty of evidence that supports the parents claims — it was all dismissed by Judge Greer witout judicial rewiew, unfortunately. Of course, Greer also took a monetary donation from Schiavo’s attorney, Felos.
    The parents asked that Greer recuse himself from the case, after the donation came to light– he refused.

    Well known fact, and in the public domain.

    The nice thing that will come out of this is that the current law in Florida that allows for an estranged husband to make life or death decisions for a wife is going to be changed. This wont ever happen again, atleast not in Florida.

  24. Damn, I stirred up a shit storm, eh? I’m glad that I am not alone in my opinion. And, as Whoo seems to so quickly forget…it is JUST an opinion afterall. Remember that whole bit about that’s why America is supposedly so great? Yeah, so anyway, I guess after reading all of the comments on this (which I’m sure you never imagined would stir up so much Mark) I had to add a few more cents worth of my thoughts.

    Despite what Whoo believes in that I am making this a “Bush” issue, that is NOT the case. My opinion is based on Bush making this a “Bush” case. This is strictly a state issue and Bush, nor the members of our Congress, should have had any input into pulling the legal maneuvers they have been in trying to save Terri. I just find it odd that Bush would come out in full support of all of this AFTER signing the Texas law allowing hospitals to discontinue life support despite a family’s wishes. This seems to be the case. And, there will always be doctors who are in disagreement over a patients prognosis, usually heavily biased on their beliefs and past medical practice experiences. No one was calling on our government to get involved with Houston “killed” an infant but discontinuing it’s life support a week or so ago.

    http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3084934

    I mean, how many courts have time and time again ruled in favor of Terri’s husband? People are often mistaken that Terri is in alot of pain, etc. From the reports I’ve read, most agree that Terri probably isn’t even feeling any pain. It’s simply a case of parents not wanting to let her go, not that it isn’t a difficult decision. And lastly, to Whoo, telling me to “educate myself on the Catholic faith” doesn’t prove your point anymore or any less. Just because she was Catholic doesn’t mean she would have wanted life saving measures. I can’t tell you of one person that I know that fully lives up to their faith’s belief system. Premarital sex, cohabitation, abortions….all of these are occuring among so called “religious” people, not just all of the atheists running around. So why would her Catholic faith make me believe she would want to live like this?

  25. Sorry to clutter up your comment box, Mark. Feel free to edit or delete at whim.

    The Terri Schiavo thing has been going on longer than just the few weeks it’s lately been given press. My problem with the husband is that if he is, as he claims, simply carrying out what he feels are his wife’s wishes, then why is she still here? What is culminating now should have been done and over with long ago IF he was simply attempting to carry out his wife’s wish to not live in such a state.

    I was blog surfing the other day and stumbled onto someone’s post (wish I could remember who’s) where they said that Terri Schiavo had more going on than the average newborn and the government wasn’t stepping in and starving them to death, why her?

    The sad fact of the matter is that the humane thing is illegal; and the legal thing is inhumane. There’s something wrong when we can’t even give a loved one the same dignity we give a beloved pet.

    I’m not going to go into the politics of this except to say that it scares the living hell out of me to think that the government can step in and do our thinking for us. I don’t know how biased the Schindlers’ side of this is, but http://www.terrisfight.net has quite a bit of legal information, including actual court documents and transcripts, if anyone really wants to get to the bottom of it.

    I’ve had a directive to physicians in place since my cancer surgery in 1991 and I’m so glad I do, but I also trust Robert (my other/better half) with my LIFE and trust him to carry out my wishes and act in my best interests and I know he would never do to me what Michael Schiavo is doing/attempt to do to her. First off, he blazed through quite a bit of money that was earmarked for medical expense, NOT legal expenses, and certainly not legal expenses fighting his wife and her family. That just doesnt’ pass my smell test.

    That’s about all I have to say about this. Sorry, Mark, for being so long winded! Looks like you stirred up a hornet’s nest!

    Later!

  26. The whole situation is immeasurably sad.

    As a physician, I realize the essence of what made Terry a unique human being is gone, her hope for any meaningful life is nil and with current medical knowledge nothing can restore her. She has the misfortune to be in a state where she looks like she responds but not in a meaningful way. It would be more straight forward if she were dependent on a respirator for life and was in a coma. If I were one of her physicians or family (including husband) I would want to make sure a current EEG showed no activity.

    As a parent, I can’t imagine how I would feel to see my daughter in this state. It is hard enough to let them go when they are whole and only growing up; but to be in this state where they move, make sounds, and seem to look at you…what parent wouldn’t want to still see their daughter in there? Again, it would be easier if there were a coma and a life-supporting respirator.

    The legal decision making chain for patients is in fact husband, adult children, parents. I don’t know if this is a written law or not…it is just how the hospitals I have worked in have determined who could give permission for treatment, autopsies and such. It usually works well. In this case the chain broke. As a woman, I would not want my “legal husband” (and I use this term loosely and with much sarcasm) who has lived with a “common law wife” for ten years and has children with her, to have the ultimate control over my life if I am incapacitated. He began his quest to remove the feeding tube about the time he started “going on with his life”.

    Forget about all the other questions in this case…they are muddled on both sides. But think about what this means to all married women; your husband would have control of your very life…even when he has moved on with his…if you are not divorced before becoming unable to decide on your own. Talk about conflict of interest. Glad to hear Florida will be changing this soon and hope all other states do as well.

  27. “As a woman, I would not want my “legal husbandâ€? (and I use this term loosely and with much sarcasm) who has lived with a “common law wifeâ€? for ten years and has children with her, to have the ultimate control over my life if I am incapacitated. He began his quest to remove the feeding tube about the time he started “going on with his lifeâ€?.”

    hear ye, hear ye, srp!! well said!

    the entire thing reeks of something very evil. thats OK though, there is always karma to look forward to.

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